Dan ([info]poserorprophet) wrote,
@ 2007-03-29 02:44:00
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A Few Thoughts on Conferences...
[T]he new order of the kingdom does not arise from within existing power relationships but quite independently of them, at the margins of society.
~ Ched Myers, Binding the Strong Man, 122.

I recently presented a few seminars at a conference in Toronto that explored some (more or less) Christian perspectives on social justice. The conference was well attended (750+ people) and I greatly enjoyed the dialogue that I had with both the other seminar leaders (or whatever you call people who give seminars) and with old and new friends that were in attendance.

However, there were a few things that seemed a little odd about the conference.

To begin with, I thought that it was a little odd that that the conference was hosted in a church that had allocated around $12 million dollars to the church building, while only simultaneously allocating approximately $1.5 million dollars to "social justice" related issues. Now, if you dig into this a bit (which, I have discovered, some others have), you will discover that this church had all sorts of "good reasons" for building a a multi-million dollar compound... but, of course, how "good" those reasons are all depends on the paradigm through which we understand things like "Church," "community," "love," and, of course, "justice." Indeed, I might be inclined to suggest that this is but another example of the way in which growth actually makes it impossible for us to fulfill our vocation as Christians (I've watched this happen over and over with Christian institutions: be those social service agencies, churches, or colleges). Church "growth" is most definitely not an unequivocally good thing, and sometimes I think churches need to put an end to growth and send their people elsewhere -- like to a church that is walking distance from home, you know, a church that is actually a part of the community in which a person lives.

Which, by the way, is the second thing I found a little odd about the community in which the conference occurred. The church where the conference was held is located in a city outside of Toronto -- although it is still a part of the "Greater Toronto Area" -- a city that just happens to be the wealthiest city in Ontario (and one of the top ten wealthiest cities in Canada [at least according to the 2001 Canada Census -- all the results aren't in from the 2006 Canada Census]). So, one might wonder, why is it that we are holding a conference that stresses the theme of solidarity with the marginalised in an extremely wealthy community that is notorious for forcing out its poor? Well, some have suggested that it is precisely this community that needs to attend to this conference. Perhaps that is true... although the opening quote that I pulled from Myers' book might cause us to begin to rethink this approach. To root such a conference in this city suggests to me that we might still be attached to models that pursue transformation from the centre to the peripheries -- from the powerful to the powerless. However, to attach oneself to models that believe that transformation moves from the peripheries to the centre -- thereby questioning our general understanding of power and power relations -- might suggest that another location may have been more suitable.

The third major thing that bothered me about the conference was the price. Depending on when one registered, and depending on whether or not one registered as part of a group of ten or more, one ended up paying between $69 and $89. Now, in my books, that's quite a bit of money and, although there were some big name speakers (Ron Sider, Jim Wallis, and Shane Claiborne being the big three), I would of thought twice about attending if I was paying to be there. Indeed, I think that such high prices probably prevented quite a few people from attending the conference. However, seeing as it was held in such a wealthy city/church, this might not have been that big of a deal. Regardless, it strikes me as unfortunate that a conference on social justice would, from the get-go, exclude those who don't have that sort of money to throw around for a one day event (oh, and meals were not included in that price... or transportation for that matter -- the church was located in an industrial complex so it seemed that one needed access to a car in order to be able to attend).

So, what do we do with all this? If we are to be critical, how can we also find a positive way forward? Well, I've got a few ideas but I would be interested to hear what others think. Are these significant concerns? If they are, where would be a good place to go with all this?

Oh, and there was one final point that caught me off-guard a little -- probably more due to poor communication than anything. It was this: nobody told me that what I said would be recorded and then sold (maybe I was just supposed to assume that that would occur?). That's right, for $10 you can own your very own copy of my seminar. However, since I'm a little uncomfortable with that (i.e. with being unknowingly commodified), you could also just email me and I'll burn you a copy of the CD that I'm receiving and I'll mail it to you (although if you wanted to pay for postage that would be nice... but not mandatory).



(25 comments) - (Post a new comment)

A Similar Concern
(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Your concern is not unwarranted. There are many who feel as if those who preach social justice, or at the least, "support" it (as in the church where the conference was held) are often part of the problem. Yet, by appearing to support the cause, one is made to feel as if one has contributed to alleviating it. This is often the case in the Church sub-culture. We feel as if by giving money to causes which help the homeless, we have done our duty. We feel no obligation to change our own habits, such as where we shop, which are aiding in, rather than changing, the system.

It is in this area where I often get the most discouraged about the direction of the Church. There are too many easy fixes which lure people into believing they are helping to fix the problem, when in reality they are not.

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Re: A Similar Concern
[info]poserorprophet
2007-03-29 01:10 pm UTC (link)
Anon,

Yes, I also find this very discouraging. I know that I've used this quote before on my blog, but it is worth remembering here:

It is part of the deception of power that repressive governments are deluded into believing that through benevolence they can lay the right foundation for harmonious relations with the people they rule. Such governments cannot see that what people really need is not benevolence but a sense of justice... It is far easier for repressive governments and military regimes to resort to philanthropy than to justice. Sympathy and philanthropy in such cases are part of the exhibition of hypocrisy.
~Naim Ateek

Although Ateek is speaking of "repressive governments and military regimes" his words apply, mutatis mutandis to the Christian community.

However, we live in hope. Grace and peace.

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(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 03:40 pm UTC (link)
It's difficult to find a balance.
I would side more with you Dan on your thoughts.
We looked downtown for a venue that would hold 500 people(the amount that we thought would show up) and either could not find anything or would end up spending twice as much (downtown isn't any cheaper). Or we could have held it at the school again and paid a similiar price for 1/10th of the facility.

As for the ticket price, it was a bit much, you are right, but it certainly was too much when we thought only 400 people were coming to the conference. I beleive it was about 400 tickets we needed to sell just to break even to run a beast like this. Since we sold way more tickets than we expected, we were able to be extra generous with our gracious volunteers, giving some people their money back for no reason but for the heck of it, giving some people money who were expecting none etc. Hopefully we can be good stewards now of the money that came in and not just feed it back into the regular system of spending.

As for you being recorded, i was under the impression that you would have been presented with a waiver (this is what happened last year) and it would be up to you if you wanted to sign it or not which would determine if it would be recorded. I apologize that didn't happen, as soon as i read your post I e-mailed the company who did it for us (which we see no profit from those cds, they offer a free service and keep the cds payment as payment)

Anyway, thanks for the comments Dan.
I have a hard time finding any sort of balance with these types of things. I find a weird dichtonomy in my own like in where i am moving to the worst areas in my own town and want to live with these people who are so broken while in the same breath running top-notch conferences in the richest cities in Canada. I feel a tear at times. I don't want to give up either side, I see too much value in both of them. What would a new conference look like? i'm not sure. I ran a conference called Cultivate Gathering last summer for church planters and it was $25 and that covered lunch even, and it was built around networking and discussion. about 60 people showed up and we covered 6 topics, i had a few people present (people that were attending the conference) on each topic and then we split up into discussion pods (you can leave and join any pod at anytime) to discuss it, we did that five times and it was over. I thought it went well and could very well be a new way of doing conference. I do think conferences are important, there is something about having a sort of signpost or a significant moment to help bring people to some sort of realization of the kingdom. Maybe charging people $80 isn't the right way though.

I posted your site on the links for the conference, hopefully people that are reading about it will find this post and be challenged a bit.

Nathan Colquhoun from Epiphaneia
www.nathancolquhoun.com

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2007-03-29 04:32 pm UTC (link)
Legitimate concerns. I particularly liked your side-bar critique of "growth". When numerical growth is at the core of a church's mission it causes all kinds of unintended consequences.

Yeah, the whole notion of first will spend millions on ourselves so that we can than spend millions on the poor is so backwards. Well, maybe it does work if all we care about is spending millions on the poor...but I think we gotta be about way more than throwing coins at people.

are you back in b.c.?
cheers,
jude

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brainwashing
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 02:13 am UTC (link)
lingering effects from your wedding extravaganza:
-last night i watched UFC greatest knockouts 4.
-for the past 3 days i've had heaven by bryan adams stuck in my head.

i would argue that these separate incidents have the same detrimental (or completely awesome) effect on my brain.

-audrey

p.s. i'll see you at the end of may, i'll be in the 'Coov for rochelle's wedding.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 11:21 am UTC (link)
I had similar thoughts years ago while in the ministry. Our church was entering a building project and was looking for money to fund it. One of our young men had a very difficult time with the concept of spending so much on a building instead of reaching out to the poor and missions and such. Long story short, he opted to leave the church and make a stand for what he believed. The irony is that he left our church which was fairly large (approx. 800-900 weekly attendance) to go to none other than peoples church in Toronto - a significantly larger church. It seems to me that sometimes the ideal is held up without any real thought of how to reach it or practice it.

Skeptic

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my thoughts on the conference
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 11:49 am UTC (link)
Hey Dan,
It was awesome to see you at the conference. I'm sorry we didn't get much of a chance to hang out. Ah, the life of a rock star comes with so many pros and cons...
I read your blog on the conference. You make valid points but I couldn't help but wonder if you had any positive feelings about it.
750 mostly white middle class Christians gave up their Saturday to come and be challenged about justice. I know some of that was due to the 'celebrity' factor, but they were exposed to some good stuff on justice and they could have been doing a lot worse things with their time. And I actually think that there is a hunger to get past the 'social service', 'I want to help those poor unfortunate souls' mentality and a deep desire to figure out what it means to be in solidarity and community with those in the margins or as you say, 'in exile'. That's why I think over 50 people wanted to hear you speak about living in intentional community and why very few people wanted to hear me speak about working with widows and orphans in a shelter. (plus your picture is so much sexier than mine)
Dan, if you truly disagreed with this conference your response to the invitation should have been 'thanks but no thanks'. You can't have it both ways. And when the swordfish people asked you to sign the waiver for them to record you, you should have said 'thanks but no thanks'. You've now entered into a contract, a covenant, with them and it's not righteous of you to now offer to burn copywrited CD's for your readers. As part of the deal for me signing the waiver, I was offered 10 free CDs. I am happy to ask them for 10 of yours so you can distribute them legally if that helps but whether you agree or disagree with 'the man' on this, you gave your word that you wouldn't do what you've offered to do in your post. (I'll keep one of them as I heard you were freaking awesome)
Dan, I have all of the same thoughts on the Meeting House scene as many others have but at the end of the day, I believe God is stirring up people out of complacency even in these circles and we need to be right there speaking the truth along the way. Bruxy Cavey should have been there to show solidarity but I didn't see him. (In his defense he may have had stuff that just made it impossible to be there but his absence was noticable)
And while the organizers could have added a line or two in their advertising offering rides and offering free admission if people didn't have $80 (which in knowing one or two of them I believe was simply an oversight), they pulled off an unbelievable event in a relatively inexpensive way that hopefully has stirred up many hearts and minds and changed the trajectory of a few people's journeys. For me, that's good Kingdom stuff and I'm glad I was a part of it.

To add my main concerns about it; there were 3 white male Americans as speakers and they could have invited at least one Canadian to be a plenary speaker. (Rick Tobias or Greg Paul or Mary Jo Leddy or Ray Aldred...) They at least invited some amazing women to be workshop speakers as these things tend to be male dominated. But the one that bothered me most was Ron Sider's seemingly great comfort in the 'market economy' or capitalism based on what seemed to be blind faith in his 'economist' friends. I assumed this would stir up huge discussion throughout the day but I fear most people in the room were with him on that as I heard nothing more on the matter.

I should stop I guess.
Peace,
Dion

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Re: my thoughts on the conference
[info]poserorprophet
2007-03-30 12:14 pm UTC (link)
Hey Dion,

Hmmmm. Looks like I've got some explaining to do. Hopefully this might clear things up a bit:

(1) Nobody ever asked me to sign any sort of waiver, and I never did sign any sort of waiver. I never had any opportunity to say "thanks but no thanks," and I never "gave my word" to anything. Therefore, I don't think I'm doing anything illegal by offering copies of my talk -- in fact, I don't know how it works but I wonder if Swordfish did something illegal by recording me and selling my talk without providing me with any sort of notice or waiver.

(2) There is much that I enjoyed about the conference. There were, however, a few things that I found a little odd -- and that was what I chose to write about in this post. So, hey, let me agree with you wholeheartedly and say that there was much that was excellent about the conference and I suspect that, if people were open and if the Spirit was moving, then a whole lot more good can continue to come out of it.

(3) The preaching pastor of the church was there for at least part of the day (although I think it was only a brief part) and one of my brothers actually had an interesting conversation with him about the whole "social justice conference in a multi-million dollar church" issue.

(4) I was unable to make it to Sider's session but I did hear some rumblings about his faith in moral capitalism or whatever you want to call it. I agree that such a position is hugely problematical for Christians and, IMHO, reflects a loss of our Christian imagination and our ability as a community of believers to embody an economy of giving that is a genuine alternative to the market economy. This is a topic well worth discussing.

(5) Finally, I'd suggest that you don't sell yourself short. When thinking of a Canadian plenary speaker, you belong right up there with Rick and Greg and Co.

Grace and peace,

Dan

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Re: my thoughts on the conference
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 01:46 pm UTC (link)

Dan,I've made some assumptions here then. So Sorry.

They were supposed to have you sign a waiver and yes they are the ones who are illegally selling your session. To that end, go ahead and burn all the CDs you want. And I'll keep my CD of you and perhaps get a few others of people I would have liked to hear. I was holding you accountable to something you didn't deserve to be held accountable to.

It's also cool to hear that 'the preaching pastor' made an appearance. I'd be interested in hearing about that conversation over an email if you find some time.

On your point 4, It would be cool to get some dialog going on this. It's of great interest to me to discuss a kingdom model of economics and I agree our current market economy isn't that.

And on point 5, thanks for the props man. I've heard others say this to and of me but I don't own it as of yet.

Can't wait to have a chance to sit and chat. I was in Vancouver while you were on your honeymoon so missed an opportunity.
Peace,
Dion

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: my thoughts on the conference
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 03:05 pm UTC (link)
Hey Dan.
Swordfish was supposed to contact you, when i read your post, I realized they didn't, so they should be now, i apologize for that, purely us overlooking some things.

Bruxy Cavey (meeting house teaching pastor) was there for a majority of the day along with both their lead pastors of the oakville site. I saw them all there for a good part of the day.

Haven't listened to Sider's presentation yet.

As for the Canadian Speaker, we tried to get Joyce Heron as a plenary speaker, but that didn't go through, so that was unfortunate. But after listening to Greg Paul's session and Fitch's session I would have been happy with either of them.

peace, love and grace

nathan
www.nathancolquhoun.com

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Hey guys,
I have enjoyed reading this thread as it has brought up some interesting points. I just would like to point out a couple of things.
Twice in this thread assumptions were made about other people and their actions without any sort of knowledge about what they were talking about. One, that Bruxy Cavey didn't attend and show his support to the conference(which he did), and secondly that Dan signed a waiver allowing his talk to be recorded and redistributed at a profit(which was wrong). I know both of these were somewhat innocent but before we jump on people and their actions lets find out the facts first. The Meeting House volunteered their building to be used but it wasn't a "meeting house" event. So the fact that staff showed up at all to show their support is great.
As both of you guys could probably affirm, much of the injustice in the world is brought about by assumptions. Not getting close enough or spending enough time with people or situations to find out the whole story. I'd just encourage you guys to find out a bit more about what you criticize. I attend the meeting house and also I am an elder there. I struggle at times with the same things that were mentioned but I also know the inner workings and struggle that comes with a church that is growing. I am in a place to critic what is going on there.

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Re: Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 05:47 pm UTC (link)
you are right that i made 2 assumtions i shouldn't have made and i feel bad about that.
in my defence, i did apologize for those and what makes my musings slightly less harmful is that i didn't do it in isolation but for the world to see and engage with.
i do feel bad on both counts and i have respect for bruxy (while i've never met him) and have appreciated this dialog. i like blogs because they have an accountability written in to them that is helpful and more times than not, constructive.
dion

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Good comments about making assumptions. I would add...

I'm also an elder at TMH and I embrace critiques both from within but I also welcome ones from the outside. The good thing about being on the inside is that I am able to filter many outside judgments based on accuracy. But sometimes insiders fail to notice things that visitors, guests, people who've heard of the community do. So, I also welcome what they have to say.

I'm not assuming from your "I am in a place to critique what is going on there" that you don't welcome outside critique. I just want to add that I don't want to be overly insular and not listen (even to false assumptions) to comments from others in the Christian community and beyond.

The thing that I appreciate about TMH is that it is what I would call a learning community (people are not shy to ask great often difficult questions) and as a part of that there is much possibility for growth, including participating in God's justice work (which is happening in some incredible ways already). Sure we're babes on this journey, possibly still incubating fetuses, but we're moving in some good directions in the area of compassion.

cheers,
jude

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Re: Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 06:55 pm UTC (link)
Sorry I didn't want to give the impression that my comments were insular, and I don't think you were implying that.
Dion, I actually sat in on your second session that you did. I have to say I was coming from a different place. I just got back from living with 4 romanians who just came out of the orphanage system and I was super interested in what you had to say as it would pertain to what I had just experienced. At first I was kinda disappointed that it wasn't about what I had thought orphans to be but after I thought more about the fact I skipped over your point of the homeless losing their primary source of support I felt humbled that there are orphans all over the city. Not just in romania. Thanks for your insight into that. I feel ingnorant at times.
Brian

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Re: Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-30 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Hi Brian,
I wished we could have unpacked what our seminars would be about in the literature as it became clear to me that day that the title of my workshop was misleading to some. There were others in the room there to hear about literal widows and orphans and I learned that my emphasis of attempting to redefine who the widows and orphans are threw some folks for a loop. I've been thinking about this stuff for so long that I forgot that I too have undergone a rethinking of who orphans and widows are along the way.

Anyway, thanks for sticking with me on Saturday and I hope that once you recovered you heard me say something helpful. And thanks for holding me accountable to some of the stuff I've posted here today.
Peace,
Dion

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Assumptions
(Anonymous)
2007-03-31 09:47 pm UTC (link)
Dion,
Honestly I really enjoyed your seminar. You're right, it wasn't exactly what I was expecting but one of the things I've been wrestling with since I've started going to romania to work with the "world famous orphans" is the question about what that looks like when I'm here in toronto. You answered my question. I mean nobody is born an orphan. They are made orphans. Just like those people who are either homeless or alone. They've lost their primary source of support.
Thanks for that my friend.
Brian

(Reply to this) (Parent)

engaging the suburban
(Anonymous)
2007-03-31 05:18 am UTC (link)
I hesitate to post among such experienced and intelligent people - but I guess I will at any rate...

I've been considering as of late the interesting problem that my childhood church is facing these days in the West. A church which was born to stand up and defend the working poor has turned into a comfortable bedroom community church. Interesting how it attempts to maintain its identity as a mission based social justice movement are undermined by the seeming lack of congregational engagement in this mission. Rather, the SA has turned into a church whose local congregations hire others to do the 'dirty work'.

This has really caused me to start to have a dialog about how we turn our comfort into action. Of course this is difficult. People have worked for this comfort for decades and it will not easily be turned back to grass roots Christianity. But this suburban church (now I refer to most, if not all denominations) is always going to exist in rich Canada. How do we convince people that Jesus was not kidding when he told us to care for the poor?

No matter the size of community, we know that there are people in desperate need of care, concern, practical help, spiritual guidance, love...the list goes on. In our own society we even have other, equally complex forms of poverty which I have not heard much discussion about at all...how wealthy millionaires can drive their BMW SUV to the nearest subway stop, get out and jump on to the tracks with their 3 year old child...this is a complicated form of poverty indeed, that I would say we need to have more conversation about. Yet in the very communities where this happens, Christians are spending more time building multi-million dollar facilities and staffs then we are reaching out to those who are needy. This can simply be best observed in our local missions giving...how much do we spend on ourselves in relation to what we spend outward?

I think that we need to do the very thing that has happened over this last weekend. We need to invite people into this type of dialog and then hope that something is acquired which translates into true heart change. For this reason I am glad that the conference was held at TMH. I think that THM represents most Christians in suburban Canada. Many are willing and desire to see God's justice enacted on the earth - but we have grown up not understanding what that really means for us.

Dan - I'm glad that you are becoming the person you are becoming. I was thrilled to have the chance to drive Shane to the airport last Saturday. Your lives are inspiring to me (especially since you were my RA...wow, those were the days). But the average middle-class Canadian is not going to move downtown and engage community in this way (though I'm feeling mighty tempted personally right now). How do we engage suburban Christendom without creating rifts and doing more damage within the church?

Ah...so many questions...
Jay Locke

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Re: engaging the suburban
(Anonymous)
2007-03-31 11:57 am UTC (link)
Hey Jason,
So sorry I missed you that day. If you stumble accross the CD of my workshop I speak to this issue a little. Too much to say here but your question(s) is where the rubber meets the road for sure. When people leave a conference like this they often find themselves scratching their heads wondering what they can do as most people don't have the capacity to drop everything and fly to Iraq or Calcutta or go hang out with Nelson Mandella or Bill Gates or give micro-loans in Ethiopia.
Who are the 'widows and orphans' in our churches and on our streets and how do we engage them is a more practical and tangible question for most.
peace,
Dion

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Conference
(Anonymous)
2007-03-31 05:21 am UTC (link)
After Jim Wallis spoke, I tried to go up to the front to chat with him as it seemed all speakers were available to engage with the audience after their seminars. Just as I reached the front I was greeted with a "Mr. Wallis doesn't have time to talk, he's got an interview soon. If you want your book autographed line up against the stage" From his body guard (for lack of a better word).

Perhaps Jim Wallis had a good reason for not talking, but I was left feeling kind of dejected and angry. I thought to myself "who does this guy think he is? So what if he's had lunch with the president. If he wants to be treated like a celebrity then I will give him no such satisfaction. You can sign your own book for all I care." And I marched off.

Anyways when I was more level headed, It made me wonder about what is at the heart of ministry. At the end of the day, the people that affected me the most weren't the ones who had written the most popular books. They were t3h people who took time to show an interest in me. They meant a thousand times more to me than any thing that anyone quasi famous said (unless you count the Oudshoorns as celebrities).

Peter

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Re: Conference
(Anonymous)
2007-04-01 03:34 pm UTC (link)
I have enjoyed reading this discussion. The original concerns brought up by Dan are worth thinking through for sure.
What I have enjoyed more is seeing people be open, honest, hold others accountable, be repentent and forgiving...and mature. I think this is exactly the heart of social justice (as I am beginning to understand it) and exactly what people should be striving for - rich, poor, black, white...whatever. The heart of the matter is of more importance than the actions because the heart spurs true action. There as SO many opinions and ideas about what is right and wrong (i.e. who should be where, who should or shouldn't to what). We know from history and from the present that people will never, ever agree on what is truth and of the most importance. However, if we continue to have discussions like this that don't end in some immature, defensive departure from one another - we are well on our way to contributing to the kingdom (again as I am continuing to understand it) even if our primary "focuses" are different. Maybe I'm naive...who knows...I'm just pretty darn sick of everyone being absolutely convinced they are right and giving no grace or allowance to others. I grew up in this model and it bothers me immensely. Thank you for showing me that doesn't have to always be the case.
I agree with the comment on women speaking more because I think it is biblical and shows a better respresentation of the body of Christ.
There are no celebrities in the kingdom of God, no "Candians or Americans"...our nationality is belongs to Christ. (that is my opinion ;0)...who agrees? come on...join MY side!(jokes). Thanks.
~B.J.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Wallis
(Anonymous)
2007-04-04 04:06 am UTC (link)
Reading God's Politics can make one ill from Wallis' self-infatuation. Reading anecdote after personal anecdote about Wallis' brushes with greatness. It is clear that Wallis enjoys his celebrity status a bit too much. Little in the way of instruction for others to follow, too much on sit back and listen to Wallis talk about himself. Modern editing/publishing is somewhat to blame of course.

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The highly critical nature of Christians, or, Why Skeptic is the smartest one of us all
(Anonymous)
2007-04-02 07:03 pm UTC (link)
Wow...hoo boy...where to begin...

You know what, I'm not going to begin. I was going to write a lengthy reply/rant regarding whether people consider themselves to be conservative-type Christians, liberal-type Christians, or following-Jesus-by-relating-with-the-poor-and-marginalized-while-avoiding-any-secular-political-terms-altogether-type Christians, they seem to have several things in common, including a whiney, self-righteous hastiness to criticize, comdemn, and divide, a certain willingness to share their own perceived expertise regarding issues/people that they have little to no (or little to know) first-hand experience with, as well as a firm belief that their way of following Jesus is The Way, and so on and so forth. However, it occurred to me that by doing so, I would not only be allowing myself to be dragged down to that level (assuming I'm not already there), but I would also become the most critical and most whiney one of them all. Instead, I think I will be better served by stepping away from this blog and reading some good books. Or drinking myself in oblivion.

But it is nice to see that people have been quick to kiss and make up on this particular post.

Peace out.

Josh.

P.S. Dan, I hope you won't e-mail or discuss with anyone the conversation I had with Bruxy at the conference. Due to the condition I was in that evening, I have no doubt that I did not begin to do Bruxy justice as I attempted to briefly relate the nature of our conversation around that particular topic. If people have concerns about Bruxy and the Spending of the Millions, I hope they will e-mail him personally, or, better yet, those at The Meeting House who are in charge of finances and building issues.

P.P.S. I thought the conference was fantastic!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The highly critical nature of Christians, or, Why Skeptic is the smartest one of us all
(Anonymous)
2007-04-02 07:54 pm UTC (link)
Josh,
In Dan's defence he has not emailed me regarding your chat with Bruxy and now that I've read your request on this matter I'll withdraw my request to Dan.
As for the rest, I'm speechless.
Peace,
Dion

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Filling out
(Anonymous)
2007-04-30 02:15 am UTC (link)
Dan asked me to fill out my thoughts some more. I initially didn't know why I had had such a strongly negative response to this post (when I refer to "this post", I am including the replies). After having turned it around in my head for a while, I've come up with the following thoughts.

A TALE OF TWO CHRISTIANS

Two men in my life that I love and respect are Christians. One would define himself as a Conservative Evangelical. He is a Bush-loving, homo-hating man of God who has dedicated his life to serving God's kingdom. He is utterly convinced that his understanding of God and Christian living is the RIGHT way to understand it. The other man doesn't like to define himself, particularly using political terms (although I think he recently tossed out the label "neo-liberal" in reference to himself). He is a pauper-loving, prince-hating man of God who has dedicated his life to serving God's kingdom. He is utterly convinced that his understanding of God and Christian living is the RIGHT way to understand it.

GREAT EXPECTATIONS

Some years ago, I began to recognize that a lot of what I had experienced of Christianity didn't seem to be quite right. Then, in my search for clarity, I began to stumble upon some very interesting and exciting people.

BLEAK HOUSE

The first was Bruxy Cavey. His teaching struck a chord with me like no other pastor had before, and I began to attend The Meeting House before it was even called The Meeting House. After this many years, some of the themes get rather repetitive, but I still learn from the teaching and I think this particular church is really doing a lot of good things. But in this post, I am told that Bruxy and The Meeting House are WRONG and have gotten off track.

CONVERSION'S TWIST

Bruxy's teaching started my thought processes down a particular path, but I was still struggling to bring real clarity to the various issues I was wrestling with. Then I read Jim Wallis' "The Call To Conversion: Revised And Updated", and it was like a light-bulb going off in my head. It seemed that Wallis had written in a very simple manner much of what I had been wrestling with for so long, and I recognized in him someone who could lead me towards a truer life. In this post, I am told the Wallis is WRONG and has gotten off track.

...continues...

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Filling out
(Anonymous)
2007-04-30 02:29 am UTC (link)
...continued...

HARD TIMES

I think my reaction to this post can be boiled down to three key things.

1) Confusion and frustration, arising from all those things which I have laid out just now.

2) An atmosphere of criticism and devisiveness, which seems to pervade online forums in particular, and most communities in general. Being the huge geek that I am, I tend to frequent a particular board game website, where discussions around all aspects of the hobby are continually on-going. Shortly before the post on this blog appeared, I had become rather discouraged by the amount of harsh remarks and personal attacks that were occurring between fans of different types of board games (of all things!), and was thinking about how people tend to unite over common interests, then promptly sub-divide themselves over specific details, and then try to prove to everyone else how their way of thinking is best. The spirit of unity is so easily stifled.

3) When I was growing up as a kid, there was a person within my close circle of influence who was frequently depressed and who had a very critical nature, yet who I so desperately wished would be happy. Whenever I did anything with this person, I would observe them to see if they seemed to be happy and having fun, which more often than not they weren't. Even if we experienced an event which I enjoyed very much, I would become deflated and discouraged when they would criticize and find fault with whatever it was that we had just experienced. It suddenly occurred to me one day, some time after this post was written, that my great experience with this conference, followed so closely by the harsh criticisms within this post, might have triggered a bit of a flash-back to my childhood experiences.

Ultimately, what perhaps may have bothered me most about this post (and the replies that followed) was that everyone was so convinced that they were RIGHT, even when what they were talking about was based on assumptions and conjecture. No, that's not quite it either. What bothers me more is that these people are so quick to tell others that they are WRONG.

OUR MUTUAL FRIEND

One final episode that played out not too long before all of this, and that somewhat deflated my new and exciting views on community, was an experience of being let down by a Christian acquaintance who I had turned to for help and support in a particular area of my life. However, I recognize that I have no one to blame but myself for the consequences that followed.

THE MYSTERY OF JESUS CHRIST

The long and the short of it is, I have taken a step back from my pusuit of community living, and have begun to re-think a lot of what people have been telling me lately. It's just hard to know where to start from again. I think for now I would like to simply pursue a trajectory that leads me towards downward mobility and improved relationship, and to continue to attempt to muddle through these difficult life issues.

Josh.

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