Dan ([info]poserorprophet) wrote,
@ 2008-04-30 21:32:00
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Gay Marriage -- Why Arguments based upon the 'Order of Creation' in Gen 1-2 are Faulty
Some Christians argue that the first few chapters of Genesis offer conclusive proof against homosexual marriages. They suggest that the relationship of Adam and Eve, prior to the "Fall", is the ideal model of an human sexual relationship and so, even though we now live in a fallen world, the relationship of Adam and Eve continues to set the standard for our sexuality. This, they argue, is the original, and good, 'order of creation', and this is the order that we must follow.

Boiled down into more polemical, popular discourse, this is the theological argument that underlies the assertion: "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve! Duh!"

Granted, the popular rhetoric is a little more offensive (although, it should be noted, the original argument is also offensive to a good many people), but it does a good job of highlighting how facile this position might end up being.

So, to be clear, I don't find this argument from Genesis and the 'original order of creation', to be at all convincing. Here's why.

(1) What was created in the beginning was good; it was not perfect.

Christians do not look back on some primordial "golden age". The garden was a good beginning, but it was only a beginning. There remains a trajectory to be followed, a story to be developed, a telos to be pursued. Or, stated more simply, the middle -- the process wherein the good is transformed, expanded, and refined -- and the end -- wherein the good is consummated -- have not yet occured.

[Furthermore, Gen 1-2 is not even the beginning that matters the most in Christian Scripture. The central beginning for the New Testament is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus (coupled with the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost), and the central beginning for the Old Testament is the exodus of the Hebrew slaves from Egypt. These are the beginnings that are the most formative for the people of God (granted, the beginning related in Genesis is important, but even this bit of theological poetry is crafted by authors who have the exodus in mind).]

Thus, Christians hold to a linear, not cyclical view of history. We're not simply going back to where we started, we're moving on from there to something better.

(2) As the good pursues this trajectory, there is a great deal of room for creativity and innovation.

Yes, the order created in the garden was good, but there is a great deal of room for creativity, innovation, and additions -- all of which can be equally good -- to this order. Perhaps the most notable example of this is the way in which the garden of Genesis gives way to the city, the New Jerusalem, of Revelation. If we were simply clinging to the original 'order of creation', then we would be obliged to continually try to 'get back to the garden.' The city would have to be seen as a perverse addition to God's good order, an addition that would have to be condemned and, ultimately, destroyed. However, despite the many critical things that Scripture has to say about cities, the city itself is caught up into God's good order.

The same could be said of other innovations -- music, architecture, even clothing, all of these things were absent in the garden but are incorporated into the biblical vision of the consummation of creation. In the end, we're not going to be walking around nude -- even though we were orginally nude, and even though our current justifications for clothing will have disappeared; clothing is an innovative, and good, addition to God's order.

(3) There is nothing in Genesis 1-2 to prevent us from considering homosexuality as one of these creative and good innovations.

Here a few subpoints must be made:

(3a) By arguing that homosexuality can be considered a creative and good innovation, I am not arguing that homosexuality is a 'choice'. Granted, sexuality is a notoriously difficult thing to figure out, but I am of the opinion that both 'nature' and 'nurture' effect us in this regard. For some people, I suspect that homosexuality is something of a choice, for other people, I know that it is not. Consequently, I would suggest that the fact that many are 'born gay' (i.e. are gay by nature) is simply a reflection of God's ongoing and innovative creativity in the world.

After all, to call God, 'Creator,' is not simply to assert that God created all things 'in the beginning.' Rather it is to assert that God is continually creating us anew, continually sustaining his creation, continually giving birth to new life, continually offering us good gifts, and so on and so forth. God is the God of creation, and new creation, and Genesis 1-2 gives us no reason reject homosexuality -- it could simply be a part of God's creative activity that continues after Genesis 1-2. Indeed, it could be one of the good gifts that God has given us!

Thus, even those (the minority) who 'choose' homosexuality, have not done anything wrong. They to, are simply engaging in an act of creative, and good, innovation -- and are mirroring God's actions by doing so.

(3b) Inevitably the question of children is raised at this point. Gay couples, it is argued, cannot procreate, and so homosexual relationships must be considered illicit (or at least subpar) because God intends marriage, and sex, to be a part of the process of reproduction, and of fulfilling the mandate to 'fill the earth and subdue it.'

Now, let us recall that the creation mandate itself is one that is good, but not perfect. That is to say, it is not one that applies at all times, in all places, to all people. If this was the case then infertile people shold be prevented from marrying (or their marriages should be considered subpar), and the whole idea of sex as an expression of intimate love, and as an experience of pleasure, becomes problematical. Yes, marriage is the proper place for sex to occur, but sex isn't something we practice solely in order to have children (and those who would suggest otherwise had better take another look at Paul's words in 1 Cor 7). Those who can't have children, and those who are uninterested in having children, are still free to practice sex within the context of marriage. Thus, I believe that gay marriages should be blessed by the Church. A creative, and good, innovation.

Furthermore, it should be noted that, at this stage of history, the earth is rather amply 'filled.' This was not the case when the events of Genesis occurred, nor was it the case at any other time in biblical history. When a people, and a community, is struggling for survival, having kids is pretty important (although, even in this situation, not having kids can be a good act of faith). When a people, and a community is well-established, things change. Thus, I think couples, be they hetero- or homosexual, are now free to not have kids.

Indeed, there are now so many kids who do not have families, that the creation mandate, when applied today, might be to adopt children rather than having our own. Why bring more children into the world when so many children are unloved today? Why not offer ourselves to these unwanted children? Isn't the choice to have children, rather than adopt children, simply an expression of selfishness -- of only wanting to love what is mine? It very well might be.

Of course, if this is how we approach the having and raising of children, it should quick be noted that homosexual couples, can offer a home that is just as healthy, and just as loving, as heterosexual couples. Thus, I believe that gay couples should be able to adopt children. Another creative, and good, innovation.

In conclusion, I end with one of Paul's doxologies (for the recognition of God's creative, and good, innovation, should always lead us to worship). Romans 11.33-36:

Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.


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(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 09:54 am UTC (link)
Dan. I just have to acknowledge how much I appreciate your creative, brave, important and always interesting writing. I hope and pray that more people would find your blog. I am not (yet) sure if I follow all of your moves in this post (but maybe), but I still think it´s brilliant. Keep up the good work, don´t be discouraged.
/Jonas Lundström, Sweden
http://blog.bahnhof.se/wb938188

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very interesting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 02:24 pm UTC (link)
hm...

very interesting post.

i have couple of questions.

by saying 'I believe that gay marriages should be blessed by the Church' do you believe then, that the church should be able to marry gay couples?

does this allow a 'gay' person to fully embrace their 'homosexuality' and still be a follower of Christ?

what about the mentions in the bible that teaches us that practicing homosexuality is sexual imorrality. And that we should stay away from all sexual imorrality.

I agree with you when you say that some people being 'gay' is a choice but for others it's not. And I do believe that 'gay' couples can provide a much nurturing and caring family as any other 'heterosexual' couples... but i still have a hard time believing that the church should bless 'gay' marriages, and how this could be an innovacting, new creation by God.

Ceasar

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Re: very interesting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 04:07 pm UTC (link)
Ceasar. Although I thing I disagree with Dan on some points (especially about blessing gay marriages), I don´t think the Bible teaches us that "practicing homosexuality is sexual immorality". "Homosexuality" to be seems to be a modern concept, and the only same-sex (sexual) relationship the authors of the bible knew about (as far as I can tell), was a relationship connected to marital unfaithfulness , prostitution and/or idolatry. It seems to me that there was no such things as long-run, faithful, same-sex relationships within those cultures, as we have it today. So I´m not sure if or how the five-six relevant passages applies today.

Still, I think that same-sex relations generally is a deviation from God´s vision, but at the same time something we might have to live with. I think the best thing to do is not always to break up these kind of relations, to me it seems Paul´s teaching in 1 Kor 7 could apply. Gay marriage, like a marriage between believer/non-believer, is not the best thing generally speaking (the best thing, according to Paul, is to avoid sexual relationships alltogether...), but it is even worse to try to break up a marriage-like same-sex relationship (that might involve kids). I think.
/Jonas Lundström
http://blog.bahnhof.se/wb938188

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Re: very interesting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 04:32 pm UTC (link)
is there a difference between calling something "immoral" and saying that it is "a deviation from God's vision"?

if something is a deviation from God's vision does that not make it immoral?

are you not essentially saying the same thing here?

jt

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Re: very interesting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 05:11 pm UTC (link)
Rt. I think definitely there is a difference. In my view, "sin" has to be defined not according to some abstract eternal law, but in relation to one´s journey and the community one belongs to (relationships etc). Sin is taking a step backwards, but it´s not sin to still not have reached the goal.

Also, it seems to me that in light of Gen 1-3, things like clothes and eating meat is also a deviation, but that doesn´t mean that every instance of using clothes or the meat of animals is "immoral".
/Jonas Lundström
http://blog.bahnhof.se/wb938188

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Re: very interesting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 05:21 pm UTC (link)
touche!

jt.

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where there is room for creativity and innovation there is room for the opposite.
(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 04:25 pm UTC (link)
hey dan. wow i found this to be a great post and felt really challenged by what you wrote. i really appreciate the 2nd point you made about there being room for creativity and innovation. however, i think that as we pursue this trajectory we must remember that creation is still broken and being redeemed (granted, it has BEEN redeemed and reconciled to God but this is a task that is still taking place. we are still being redeemed and reconciled). so not only is there room for creativity and innovation but there is also room (much room for that matter) for destruction and death.

one of your statements that i have a hard time accepting is, "Thus, even those (the minority) who 'choose' homosexuality, have not done anything wrong. They to, are simply engaging in an act of creative, and good, innovation -- and are mirroring God's actions by doing so." i live in toronto and have been to our city's pride parade (world renowned!). i know it is more of a spectacle than your average homosexuals lifestyle but i don't see this as "mirroring God's actions."

i think that scripture is clear that homosexual SEX (as distinguished from homosexuality) is immoral. this can be seen in both the OT and NT. if something is immoral, i find it difficult to call it creative and innovative.

i'm not sure i'm ready to call homosexuality a creative and innovative creation of God, however, i would agree that homosexuality is not the abomination that many Christians treat it as.

a friend of mine is gay. he is attracted to males but he does not practice gay sex. in fact, he's married, to a female that is also attracted to the same sex. granted, this wouldnt work for all homosexuals, but i find something redemptive in my friends situation. i see God at work there. i see reconciliation.

so i would not agree that the church ought to bless same sex marriage. but my reason for saying so is not because of God's original creation mandate. rather, my reason for saying so is that if the church blesses same sex marriage then we are essentially denying the power of Christ to transform lives. we're saying, "come as you are, and stay that way!" but that's not the Gospel. the Gospel says, "come as you are, and be transformed!" that's exciting to me.

i very much appreciate your writing dan and i've been reading your blog for a while now. but i don't see eye to eye with you on this one. God is good and there are creative and innovative things being created, however, i don't believe homosexuality to one of those things. i think scripture paints sexuality as broken and in need of redemption. in fact, there has been redemption. and the power of the Gospel is able to transform sexuality into something good.

in conclusion though, i agree, with the title of this post: "Arguments based upon the 'Order of Creation' in Gen 1-2 are Faulty."

grace and peace.

jt.
jonathanturtle.wordpress.com

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-01 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Another point here, related broadly, is whether the church should have business perpetuating or "blessing" a legal-civil institution (marriage) under any situation. Peter

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Blessing marriage?
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 01:43 pm UTC (link)
Peter. A good question. What is your take on this? Personally, I don´t think the church should. The church should be an alternativ society, not blessing the existing system. I even think that sexual relationships/marriage should be avoided whenever possible, this is the better way (I agree with Paul).

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Blessing marriage?
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Peter. A good question. What is your take on this? Personally, I don´t think the church should. The church should be an alternativ society, not blessing the existing system. I even think that sexual relationships/marriage should be avoided whenever possible, this is the better way (I agree with Paul).
/Jonas Lundström

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Re: Blessing marriage?
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 02:20 pm UTC (link)
I generally feel the church should be an anarchical society, and therefore sanctioning or bestowing civic privileges should be a practice that it distances itself from. Peter (coprinus.blogspot.com)

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 12:26 pm UTC (link)
Dan,

First let me say thank you for posting this. The church where I am employed has been conducting a series of sermons about the biblical position on certain issues. This past weekend was homosexuality. As I left the service, I was grieved and heartbroken for my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in Christ.

Second, another issue I would raise, especially since others have mentioned homosexuality being a "deviation" from God's plan, is that if it truly was not God's plan, then I must ask why men can be sexually stimulated through their anus. It would seem a bit of a ridiculous point to say that the fact that sexual pleasure can be achieved through massaging the prostate is just by chance. I don't know whether it was God's plan or not, but it is interesting to note that this is possible for men (it's not an issue with women for obvious reasons).

Finally, one of the more troubling issues with this whole thing is how it is boiled down only to sex and nothing more--and not simply recreational sex, but sex for procreation. To me, limiting sex in such ways demeans it entirely.

Just my thoughts,
DH

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Deviation?
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 01:48 pm UTC (link)
DH. Since I was the one talking about "deviation"... I don´t understand your argument. I am talking about the large, epic story of God´s purposes. God´s vision, I believe, has been thwarted (is that an english word?), something that has affected all the creation. For this reason I think that we neither can nor should try to build theology from what things as they are in the nature. This works both ways, of course, in relationship to same-sex relationship, we can neither confirm or deny in just by looking at "the nature".

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-03 06:32 am UTC (link)
"if it truly was not God's plan, then I must ask why men can be sexually stimulated through their anus. It would seem a bit of a ridiculous point to say that the fact that sexual pleasure can be achieved through massaging the prostate is just by chance."

seriously? this reasoning is beyond ridiculous.

guys can be sexually stimulated through their ass.
therefore, its part of Gods plan.

friendo, sexual pleasure can come along in all shapes and sizes and just because something is sexually stimulating does not make it good or pleasing to God (read: beastiality, pornography, lust, visiting a prostitute, adult having sex with children etc etc etc).

jt.

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unchanging God vs. changing God
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 02:19 pm UTC (link)
This arguement can go back and forth in many different ways.

i agree with jt, practicing homosexual 'sex' is immoral and it is destestable by God. (Leviticus 18)

According to Gen. 2:24 and Matt 19:5, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. Sexual relations was created by God for a husband and a wife to express their sexual intimacy within the covenant of marriage.

However, we have distorted that and started to practice polygamy, homosexual relations, rape, sexual relations with family, with multiple people and even w/ animals!

what i'm questioning now is that, if Gen 2:24 is God's original intention of what a marriage shouldbe then why on earth does He make such exceptions in the past?

Moses permitted divorce because the Israelites' hearts were hardened. (Not God's intention in the begining but He made an exception)

and God still called King David a man after His own heart and made a covenant with him even though David had multiple wives and concubines, which is clearly not God's intention of how marriage should be.

So does this justify homosexual relations and marriages as God's way of making another exception for us since we live in a fallen world and in such a broken state?



I'd love to hear what you guys and Dan think about this...

Ceasar

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Re: unchanging God vs. changing God
(Anonymous)
2008-05-02 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Ceasar. I would argue that Lev needs more treatment before being applied to present day same-sex marriage. Most people using this argument (how about you?) have no problem with eating pigs and loads of other things in Leviticus. And I have no problem with Matt 19, the issue here is not same-sex marriage. It simply didn´t exist (?) at the time, so why should Jesus words apply to this?

Anyway, so far I am not ready to abandon seeing homosexuality as, generally speaking, something that God did not intend, like sickness, killing animals, wearing clothes and more. As I read Gen 1-3, God intended the male-female relationship in order (among other things) for us to be fruitful. (A mission that Dan has pointed out, might have been completed.) So I think same-sex marriage should be avoided, where possible, but at the same time it should not be broken where it already has come into existence. I have previously compared to existing marriages between believers and non-believers, which Paul seems to both discourage (2 Kor 6:14-), but accept while they have already happened (1 Kor 7). One could also compare to people coming to Christ within cultures where polygamy is accepted. Is the best way really to break up those marriages?

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-04 01:31 am UTC (link)
JT,

I'm not using it as a complete argument for the acceptance of GLBT individuals on the part of the Church. Rather, I'm simply making the point that, anatomically, sexuality isn't completely just "inserting tab A into slot B." In fact, I would say that sexuality is much more complex and hard to simply nail down.

Also, the sexual acts you mentioned don't compare to what I'm stating, as they all involve exploitation on some level, whereas committed, monogamous homosexual couples wouldn't be placed in the same category.

Finally, I don't believe this is the strongest argument to be made, but simply one which needs to be considered. I do believe Dan has presented quite a few arguments which deserve consideration.

However, I do believe anatomical discussions need to be considered because many who argue against full inclusion, as Dan alludes to by his post, point to creation as the reason why this should not be so. I believe this to be a bogus argument, as it boils down sex simply to procreation and seems to leave it in the realm I mentioned above (i.e., inserting slots in tabs). Sexuality is a God-given gift, and one should not assume it should be easy to explain.

Oh, and leave the shitty sarcasm at home--I'm simply engaging in a discussion which I thought was among adults.

DH

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 03:36 pm UTC (link)
fair enough. however, my point was simply that just because something is pleasing to humans does not mean that this was "built-in" by God, because not everything that is pleasing is good. some pleasure is derived from evil desire, and so surely this pleasure is not good simply because it is pleasing. in other words, pleasure is not necessarily good in and of itself.

"Also, the sexual acts you mentioned don't compare to what I'm stating, as they all involve exploitation on some level, whereas committed, monogamous homosexual couples wouldn't be placed in the same category."

in response to this quote, fair enough. however, what if you have 3 adults that consent to having sex together. or, what if you have two married couples that consent to trading spouses for a night on the basis of pleasure. surely, not all pleasure is good.

i wasn't meaning to be sarcastic, so i'm sorry if that's how i came across.

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 06:32 pm UTC (link)
I would have to say I understand what you're getting at, however it still seems to be a bit different--one is directly related to anatomy and one is simply related to a derivation from a somewhat religious norm (e.g., monogamy).

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 06:33 pm UTC (link)
I would have to say I understand what you're getting at, however it still seems to be a bit different--one is directly related to anatomy and one is simply related to a derivation from a somewhat religious norm (e.g., monogamy).

DH

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-04 01:47 am UTC (link)
"i think that scripture is clear that homosexual SEX (as distinguished from homosexuality) is immoral. this can be seen in both the OT and NT. if something is immoral, i find it difficult to call it creative and innovative."

I'm curious as to why you believe the Bible is clear on this issue. Aside from the creation narrative Dan has already tackled, one only has, at most, five other verses which deal directly with the issue of homosexuality (although I'm not quite sure it is speaking to what we understand as homosexuality today--more on that in a moment).

First, the two texts which we find in Leviticus restrict their notion of homosexual activity to male-male sexual contact and nothing--which seems quite odd as one considers that there are other portions of Leviticus which have no problem addressing deviant sexual acts on the part of women. So, one must ask why this is so. Well, let me propose an option, and it requires considering the world through ancient eyes. We find in the narrative about Onan, which has been used by our Roman Catholic friends to dismiss birth control (at least as part of their argument), that he receives death for spilling his seed on the ground. Now, there have been quite a few thoughts as to why Onan died, but I think it fits in with what I'm about to propose. If the ancient world believed, through their empirical senses, that "life" originated with the man through his sperm, as this would be the only bodily thing which they would see result from sex, and that the woman was simply the receptacle for this "life," then it would stand to reason that Leviticus would only need to condemn homosexual acts on the part of men because it results in the loss of "life." Whereas homosexual acts on the part of women has no such 'consequences.' We need to be able to see these texts clearly through the eyes of the ancient ones who would have heard it.

Second, Romans 1 deals with both women and men in homosexual activity, but does so in the context of idolatry. So, it is possible to assume that Paul is speaking only to this type of activity rather than the monogamous relationships we see today.

Finally, the other passages (which I'm not sure where they are at present without looking and I really don't feel like looking them up now) may possibly be dealing with something known as "pedrasty," which involved men, usually with power, sleeping with younger men, including boys--much like what would be considered pedophilia today. So, Paul may be quite clearly condemning this practice as not compatible with the kingdom of God, but not dismissing the availability of God's blessings to what we understand to be monogamous homosexual couples today.

In addition, I find it quite compelling that even within the broad scope of Jesus' teaching, he has nothing to say on this subject. If it was such as huge issue, then I would assume to find Jesus directly addressing it in his own teachings.

To conclude, I would say that based on the reasons above, one is driven back to the "order of creation" argument, which is why my comment deserves a bit of consideration. If you believe God is the author and creator of all humanity, then why make the man (which it only matters for a man in homosexual relationships, for obvious reasons) with the ability to receive sexual pleasure, via the prostrate, through the anus? It would seem quite unnecessary if sexuality is simply boiled down to "inserting tab A in slot B" and then creating a baby. That's why I left the comment I did, realizing that it isn't the full extent of the argument, but a piece of it.

Oh, and I must ask: What is your theological stance regarding the Bible? (This may help if this conversation progresses.)

Eagerly awaiting your response,
DH

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 03:49 pm UTC (link)
forgive me, i may have said "clear" too quickly. i don't think that scripture paints "clear" pictures of a number of issues, but i don't see this as being the point of scripture. scripture isn't a means to an end for us decipher good from bad actions. rather, scripture paints a picture of God and creation, and in what results, God and his broken creation. in regards to gen. 1 and 2, although that may not be the climax of creation i think we still ought to give credit to the way in which God *did* create, because i think there is something to that. to simply write it off as "unfinished" i don't think is fair. God certainly had something in mind as he created and there was certainly purpose to his creation (not rick warren purpose, but purpose none-the-less).

also, i'm not sure if Jesus *was* mute on the issue or not. certainly the Gospels do not contain *all* of what Jesus taught or spoke about. so it's possible that Jesus did encounter and teach on these issues but it just wasn't recorded by the Gospel authors.

anyways, that aside, i agree with you that homosexuality today is in all likelihood something vastly different from the homosexuality of the bible. however, that said, i think we ought to give credit to christian tradition on this issue instead of simply "progressing" with the times. i don't think that homosexuality is part of God's grand plan rather, i think it's a very real part of the entire brokenness of creation and evidence to the fact that sexuality, as part of creation, is too in need of redemption and reconciliation.

that being said, i believe that men and women who find themselves attracted to the same sex have been poorly treated by the church (generally speaking) and so i'm glad for some of the reconciliation that is taking place today in this area.

and DH, i'm not sure what you mean by asking me my theological stance regarding the Bible?

grace and peace.

JT

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Well, first, I would argue that possibly the Genesis 1 and 2 accounts reflect a generalized knowledge of one possible understanding of where we all came from. In essence, just as you assert that the gospels may not contain the entirety of Jesus' teachings, so I ask why we cannot assume that the creation narratives represent a guess as to where we all came from based on empirical, ancient evidence. In a sense, I'm arguing that the attitude of the authors may have gone something like this:

'Well, since procreation can only occur through the sexual union of one man and one woman, then that must be how God created it to be.'

DH

They simply wrote down what the empirical evidence led them to believe, in part, and now we've established an understanding of sexuality solely based on it.

Second, I'm not sure if I feel comfortable asserting that those individuals who feel as if their attractions were not chosen are in some way more deficient or more broken than the rest of us (and I acknowledge that we all are broken to some extent).

Finally, I asked about your theological stance regarding the bible because I think it is germane to the discussion at hand. If you hold to a biblical literalism and inerrant position, then you and I are arguing from different places. That's why I asked--to help the discussion along.

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 07:22 pm UTC (link)
sort of a side note...romans 1 deals with homosexuality in the context of idolatry, as you put it. true, but how is that any different from today? is there not the same idolatry today as then? more to the point, it says that God gave them over to their sinful desires. in other words, these people had the desire (noting that in this case sexual desire is called "sinful") to do these things and there is no necessary connection to idolatry here.

all of that aside, paul seems to think that male-male, female-female sexual relations is unnatural (v26). in fact, he even calls male-female relations natural (v27).

in other words, paul calls same-sex SEXUAL relations unnatural.

back to my point on desire, just because men desire men does not mean that these are natural healthy desires that ought to be accepted. Augustine has much to say here. we need to be freed from false desire and moved on to desire rightly.

so if its true that same-sex sexual relations are unnatural then i would argue that people ought to be freed from this desire and move on towards right desire. isn't that the Gospels transforming power?

jt.

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 06:46 pm UTC (link)
The problem with what you assert about Romans 1, mainly verse 24, is what follows in verse 25, which is a context of idolatry and worship of false things. So, I'm asking, or asserting, that it is possible to understand what Paul is condemning within the first century world of pagan temple worship, which often involved sexual practice. So, is Paul condemning homosexual practices between committed, monogamous individuals in a living relationship, or is he condemning the action as part of the overall condemnation of idolatry? I think there is an overall theme in this pericope dealing with idolatry--and nothing like the idolatry you mention. It's the broader concept at play.

Also, I might be inclined to argue that Paul's language of natural and unnatural could relate strictly to procreation, where again I would argue that sex isn't simply about procreation.

DH

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Some problems
[info]civitatedei.wordpress.com
2008-05-05 03:55 am UTC (link)

Interesting post, but I don't think it adds up. The argument you've presented is sound, but it excludes important information that would negatively affect it.

You say that the beginning, creation, was good but not perfect. Due to this there is room for creativity and innovation, such as the move from a garden to a garden city. You then say there is nothing in Genesis 1-2 to stop us from thinking that homosexuality is one of those creative innovations.

“Thus, even those (the minority) who 'choose' homosexuality, have not done anything wrong. They to, are simply engaging in an act of creative, and good, innovation -- and are mirroring God's actions by doing so.”

Perhaps this is true if we just look at Genesis 2 alone, but Christ interprets Genesis 2 in the gospels. He uses it to condemn (at least some forms of) divorce.

So, although creation was good but not perfect, the goodness of creation does reflect some values that God wishes to reflect throughout the whole story of Scripture (unless you think that we ought to move beyond the words of Christ on divorce to some more 'innovation').

Of course, this same logic doesn't necessarily follow with homosexuality. Christ doesn't authoritatively speak on that subject (without getting into his discussion of Sodom and Gomorrah). But, the whole canon of Scripture does. As Robert Gagnon's work has shown, everytime homosexuality is mentioned in the Scripture, it is seen to be an act of great abhorrence to God.

I see no good reason to see men having sex with one another as an “act of creative and good innovation” In light of the pertinent texts (which should be looked at more in depth ... DH's analysis in the comments was seriously lacking, cf. his argument from silence on Jesus and homosexuality) that do speak of homosexuality, this is downright blasphemy.

Keith Brooks

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Re: Some problems
(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Keith. I acknowledge some of your arguments. But I think we should be careful about which words to use. "Homosexuality" isn´t mentioned in the Bible. To say this is to confuse the issue. To lump those scriptures together under this modern label is already to take a particular stance. In my view, the five-six texts about this doesn´t refer to one and the same thing. For example, Leviticus treats (some sort of?) male same-sex intercourse, the Sodom-text speaks about male gang-rape and 1 Kor 6 and 1 Tim speaks about some kind of male sexual activities that are unclear from the texts, probably some kind of unequal male prostitution. Rom 1 is about people abandoning the creator and their "natural" sexual partner.
/Jonas Lundström

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[info]poserorprophet
2008-05-05 06:13 pm UTC (link)
All,

I must apologise for my silence in this discussion. I greatly enjoy the discussion but have been sort of busy lately. Mea culpa.

However, as my position has now been designated as "downright blasphemy" (I was wondering when I was going to hear that), it has become clear to me that I need to write a little more in response to what Scripture says elsewhere on this topic. In this way, I hope to respond to the main objections raised in this discussion (primarily those objections raised by Ceasar, jt, and Keith Brooks).

It seems to me that the major objection to what I have written here is this: although Gen 1-2 affords us a great deal of creativity, that creativity is delimited by the broader biblical narrative (I agree with this point). In particular, the objection is that the broader witness of Scripture prohibits the type of creative innovation for which I am advocating (naturally, I disagree with this point).

I intend to write a few follow-up posts (three?), but, at this point, let me note the following. Those who object to my position apper to have ceded the point that Gen 1-2 cannot be the foundation of their position. Rather, what is at stake here is how we read Gen 1-2 in light of other biblical passages. On its own, Gen 1-2 has nothing to say on the topic of homosexuality, and to argue that Gen 1-2 implicitly condemns homosexuality because gay marriage is never mentioned, is as foolish as arguing that Jesus implicity accepts homosexuality because he never condemns it (although he does condemn other sexual acts... like the adultery practiced by hetersexual men when they look lustfully at women).

In my opinion, this is a significant step forward as it demonstrates that our reflections upon the nature and significance of 'the order of creation' are frequently founded upon passages outside of the creation narrative in Gen 1-2. Perhaps we are beginning to understand that appeals to 'the order of creation' are simply appeals to an extrinsic contruct that we have pasted onto the creation narrative.

This is not to say that there is no 'order of creation' at all in Gen 1-2 (indeed, I affirm that a good order is created in Gen 1-2). Rather, it is to say that what that order is may be both more limited, and more open, than many of us have imagined.

Grace and peace,

Dan

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 07:11 pm UTC (link)
fair enough. look forward to continuing the chat!

jt

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-09 02:57 am UTC (link)
i was hoping this was only the beginning of more to come.

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